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BluehairOMO
Bark like a dog for me
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 Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 07:51:06
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I want to begin by stating these are my thoughts and opinions. I am not asking or expecting anyone to agree with me, but at least these are MY thoughts, rather than someone else's passed along in a link. It is a continuation of my earlier posting re: the ridiculous war of invective and lack of real debate on a number of issues of concern to America and the world. This will ramble as I am not going to do extensive editing.
Since we have a semi-conservative majority in OMO-land, I will start on the Liberals so no one thinks I am just a mouthpiece for some liberal line of ideology. I am a moderate and registered Independent, so please try to keep your inuendo and name-calling to a minimum. :) I will state that at the moment I am slightly more pissed off at the Conservatives than the Liberals, but it is a close race.
I support many of the president's ideals, but NOT the way that things are being done. He is easy to like, but harder to respect, and impossible to fear. That fear and respect is necessary in a national security context. If our potential and actual enemies do not respect the US's power and fear what may happen to them, they will be encouraged to act against us. This condition also hamstrings him in working with our Senate and House. It may be a Democratic Congress, but they are going their own way with almost no true "my way or the highway" leadership from the President. Pelosi and Co. are taking things in a bad direction doing things the same way that the Republicans were voted out for. No transparency, and backsliding on the issues they were elected on. The President's numbers were too high at the time of his election, so they had nowhere to go but down. This gave the members of Congress all the wiggle room they needed to be the power/headline/money-grabbing people that most politicans show themselves to be, no matter their affiliation. Unfortunately, this will most likely be the situation for the next 7 years or so(explanation to follow). The president has too many things on his plate to take the time to go spank the House members every time they break the leash and run all over the budget making a mess. Vetoing a Democratic-pushed bill will be a big loser for all concerned in a political context, so that will not happen... even if it harms the country.
The Liberals, as always, are taking a few good ideas and expanding on them until they are not healthy for the country as a whole. If a little of something is good, then more is better DOES NOT WORK. Taking a concept to its logical but ridiculous conclusion is not good government. But it is a lesson we all get to learn again. weee. My congresscritter hears from me on these things.
Having to backpedal on health care because they overshot will be a nice blow, and hopefully calm them down. Getting the economy back on track is something Dems have shown some facility at, so after the initial bitching about raised taxes they may come out even in regards to the monstorous deficit we will have for a long time. The only good thing about having a huge deficit going in to the Age of the Democrat is that they won't be able to bloat up too many programs without really pissing folks off more than they already have. They need to be reigned in, but there is no one to do it.
Both Liberal and Conservative views have merits on any number of issues, but it requires real debate to keep the extremes of either side from having too much say. This is where my anger at Conservatives comes in.
Conservatives ... THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT! :) Even though I(and many other moderates that i have spoken with) agree with many of the conservative opinions, there is no chance I will support a conservative candidate. Socialism, death panel, facism, birther. End of story. If that is all they have to hurl I want no part of it. The Democratic party was able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for decades because the message of the Republicans/Conservatives was clear and positive, even when it was wrong. So they decided to go the other way for a while just because Cheney/Bush screwed the pooch(I still have a picture in my head of Bush in the Oval Office kneeling before a hologram of Dick Cheney in black robes). There was nothing wrong with the way the message was going out, it was the yahoo in the White House. They lost, deal with it. Just to set the record straight... I was voting for McCain right up to the moment the Hockey Mom showed. Lame attempt to PR their way into the White House. The Dems beat them to it, and they should have countered with real substantive issue management, so in four years there would have been a real chance of a real contest. The election was lost before either candidate was picked and we all knew it.
For every person that attended a tea party or town hall screamfest, the Conservatives lost two to apathy at the way the issue was presented. That hurts the country when folks don't want to get involved, regardless of the reason. "Purifying The Party" is another way of saying "make us so small we have zero chance of truly effecting change or balance". Politics and compromise should be next to each other in the dictionary. Both sides have forgotten that, and with the death of Senator Kennedy, we are truly screwed in that department. He was an imperfect man to say the least, but he made compromises that got things done.
Let's examine a few terms. My fave at the moment is the boogyman Socialism. I want to laugh and cry at the same time. Let's see... I believe we can agree that a large percentage of Conservatives are farmers and Christians and elderly, just by the demographics I have seen over the last few decades. I think we have a little hypocrisy here, don't you? Must I expound? Google farm subsidies. Have you read a bible(Proverbs 19:17, Corinthians 9:6, I could go on) lately? Cashed a Socialism Security check this month? Gone to a socialist Medicare doctor lately? When I was younger, this is where I would say.. if yes to any of the above, then STFU! :) Now that I am older I realise that things are more complex that that, but the resonance is still there. Once again ... not helping anyone and only hurting yourselves there my Conservative friends.
Taxes. Again.. it is to laugh. Americans pay the absolute lowest taxes of any industrialised nation, and whine whine whine when they cannot get what they want from government AND when ANY mention of raising taxes is made. Clinton was a goof, but he balanced the books and the world did not end when our taxes went up did it? We constantly run into the wall of the party line being parroted regardless of what it means to the country or the objective conditions that exist. Our taxes are going up. They have to. Deal with it and try to help instead of whining.
Death panel. Every time I am almost ready to register as a Republican, crap like this snaps me right around. The idea that this would happen is ridiculous. Always keep in mind the whore-like nature of the vast majority of politicians. They want to get re-elected. Who thinks this would make a good campaign position? Granny in the way? We'll help knock her off. Go find a large trout and slap yourself with it if you believe this. ADVISING people of their own personal CHOICES is not the same as strapping granny to a gurney and giving her the needle(possible punk song title?), or denying someone care.
Now I do not blame the originators of this jihad against compromise and civility. That is like arresting a dog for vandalism for pissing on a fire hydrant. It's just being a dog. It is the people that take this stuff in and treat it like the gospel they read on Sunday, without any original thought or perspective on their part, that really make me soggy and hard to light. The Liberals ARE too powerful. They ARE making policy that may hurt the country as a whole. The Conservatives ARE making it easier for them to continue this with their unfocused shouting at the rain/whatever they are for we are against positions. Be FOR something and present it in a civil, logical manner on its merits. Double the party membership in a year or less.
Now I hate whiners who do not contribute, so here is my tidbit of change. I believe I have mentioned it before but I think it bears repeating.
It's an oldie but a goodie... Term Limits. Yes friends and neighbors, it's the thing voters want that they will never get. "Eight Is Enough!" should be the rallying cry for all Americans no matter your affiliation. Two terms as President or Senator, four as Congresscritter. Getting all the states on board would be nice as well. For all you strict-constructionist types, the founding fathers regarded serving in the government to be just that... service. Like the armed forces. You temporarily left your real life and career to SERVE the country as whole, and then went BACK to your real life providing whatever goods or services you can to your community. Now we are being governed by folks who think a congressman's salary is a pile of money, and being treated like a modern prince is a good thing to be continued as long as possible, regardless of the needs of their districts or country. That makes me more nervous than any temporary political flap or which side is in power this year.
In closing, I have a personal challenge for all who made it this far without having an ideology embolism.
If you are a Liberal, take in NO liberal media for one full week. Watch FOX, listen to Rush and Hennity(sp), go to the Heritage Foundation site, etc. We are all adults with fully formed BS filters. Filter out the snark and name calling and look at the issues from that side. There is merit in a lot of the conservative positions, you just have to dig a bit.
Conservatives... same drill. Listen to NPR, watch Jon Stewert and the Colbert Report, etc. Same thing, you have to filter out the snark and the "lean" to the left, but you may actually find a few things that (gasp) make sense. You get the easier task in my opinion, because at least some of this is actually funny in presentation rather than mean-spirited.
The real challenge is this ... FIND THE SPIN. Both sides take real objective conditions and facts and then grab them away from the original areas and insert them into different context to make the other side look like morons. Use third party objective sites and media to backcheck anything that really catches your eye.
The objective is to snap yourselves into truly believing that your own thoughts and opinions are just as real as the talking heads you listen to on a daily basis. We used to say "question authority". Do it. Take nothing for granted. Everyone has an agenda and wants you to believe they are the only ones you can trust. Most of them from either side are full of shit. Trust yourself, get informed, and make YOUR opinions known.
time elapsed 2 hours 50 minutes ... i'm done... for now.... more to come ....
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Lord, help me to be the person my psychiatrist medicates me to be. |
Edited by - BluehairOMO on Sep 25 2009 08:10:57
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Specimen-OMO
OMO stalker
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 08:22:30
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Wow. Was that a cool, refreshing breeze that just whisked through here? like a spearmint flavour.
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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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 Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 09:20:58
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Bluehair........what can I say........I guess I will start with  really impressive. I wish I could express my thoughts so well.
Some one said it once berore but I will repeat it
"WE NEED BLUEHAIR IN THE WHITE HOUSE"
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Always take your Med's
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Nosehair-OMO
Administrator
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 09:28:46
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Did I just have a York peppermint patty?
Well said sir and AMEN on term limits. Get those career IDIOTS out a let's get genuine representation.
I've stated before that I listen to Glenn and Rush as well as NPR. Where is the REAL independent news source? That sounds like an oxymoron.
On an unrelated note: time to bomb bomb Iran imho.
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Edited by - Nosehair-OMO on Sep 25 2009 10:53:02 |
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HEARTBURN-OMO
Spammer wannabe
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 11:35:08
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Don't have time to really respond to this today as my daughter is getting married 3 hours away and I have to go take care of more important things.
HOWEVER, YOU my friend are a true moderate leaning to liberal. You laughed at some fears we all should be worried about as they are rolling out right in front of us. Every program, every time Obama takes over another industry, WE, all of us, lose a little more of our freedom. I am one that thinks anytime the gov't gets involved it either goes broke or buries itself in so much redtape and faboritizm, it doesn't work. I'll shut up about that when you can name me one thing the gov't runs that is successfull and self supporting and does what it originally was intended to do.
As far as your hero Kennedy.....he was known for reaching across the isle. LOL.. name one Kennedy bill that was actually passed. He could do nothing on his own especially when it envolved getting his party and the republicans to go along with.
Finally, everyone makes fun of those who have attended 11-12, or any of the "shout fest" you so put it. The fact is we are becoming more socialist every day. If this was the bush Presidency, all the new organizations would be all over it. WE, the people that see what's really going on have to shout! 99% of the so called media are far left libs who will not investigate anything, say anything that would hurt Obama and the dems. Come to think of it, all through the Bush years everynight we would have the "Death Count" in theater. Do you see it now? Where did it go? Now, we're playing with our soldiers lives in Afghanistan where the President won't committ to anything because he doesn't want to make Dems mad before he gets his health bill.
I am one of those who you could consider the "silent majority." Never was active as I had to work too much, had kids in college, had a mortgage to pay off, stupid stuff.. Because I see the soft tierny Obama is forcing down our throat, billions going to sub-gov Acorn types, stimulus that doesn't stimulate anything but more politicians and their favs pockets...I stand up and ask for true answers, not just lie after lie after lie as we tend to get from Obama?? Especially since the true guardian of our political system, the media, is no longer independent.. Then I am one of those. In six months Obama and the dems have tripled our debt to 3.6 trillion!!!! That's more than all the budgets from Washing to Bush together. And, there's no end in sight. If this keeps going folks non of us will be able to afford to piss in a can. We'll all be on the gov't doles both dems and reps. .... and a final thought, I do watch CNN and every now and then I'll turn on MSNBC. The only problem I have with those stations is they ARE state run, and repeat whatever the whitehouse talking points of the day are. You never see any thoughtful, investigative reporting going on.
So, sorry for the length...need to go do something very important, get rid of another kid..lol..
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http://www.entertonement.com/clips/sgxwpvxvjk--I-wipe-my-own-ass |
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Bloody
OMO groupie
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 12:07:32
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Good post Bluehair!
I don't have time to really respond as I would like (have lunch date in a bit), but I will say you had some nice lines about Obama being easy to like, hard to respect, etc.
I would say that I agree with HB about every new government run bank, corporation, etc. is very bad for the country. And the idea of the government even having a tiny bit to do with health care is very sad and scary to me. Been to the DMV lately? lol
I also agree that many good ideas (on both "sides" of the isle) are quickly bloated with so much add ons, amendments, pork, etc. that you end up with a 900 page spending bill that should have been one page saying "don't let states launch nukes at each other". lol
I am neither republican, democrat, or even independent. I vote by position, candidates, and what is best for my country, state, city, etc. I think we need term limits (2 terms for any position), and we should make it 100% illegal to allow any candidate to take even a dime from anyone for anything. Each position should have a dollar amount set and tied to it for every election. The money for this would be added to everyone's federal taxes ($10 say) and every registered voter and or tax payer would have to pay it no matter what.
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BackPainOMO
Have Blunderbus, Will Plunder!
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 12:22:16
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Can you break this down into a series of single paragraph posts? My attention span is not as long as it used to be.
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| "The (Democratic) Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. ... We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" --George Orwell, "1984" - And if you have not figured that out by now with Obama in office, there is no hope. |
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 14:17:08
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Good Post BH, I bet it felt good to get that off your chest and that's whole intention of this forum. You shouldn't have to worry about people calling you names because they won't get away with it for long.
Term limits would go a long way in ending the corruption on both sides, seems like all a politician is worried about once he's in power is staying in power. The only problem is the only people that can make that happen is congress, oh the irony!
I would like to take issue with a few of your points though if you don't mind. I'm conservative by nature, I don't like a big Federal Govt that waste money like crazy. If given a choice I wouldn't contribute to Social Security or medicare but since I do, why not get back what I put in when I turn 65 (if it's still there)? I pay 2k a month in taxes and yet I don't meet the requirements to advantage of Govt programs yet the guy down the street who pays NO taxes is gets a rebate check.
On Clinton, Congress pays the bills and he had a Republican lead Congress 6 out of the eight years he was in office.
Death panels is hockey mom speak for Govt ran advisory medical boards. They were in the bill at one time but have since been remove because of all of us crybabies that don't think the Govt should have a role in determining whats best for our families. Do you think they would actually call them Death panels? No but they have something similar in Briton (I'll remember what's it called later and will post an update when I have more time) They deny people end of life coverage more often than you think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
On taxes, Dubai has the lowest taxes of any industrial nation and their economy is booming. http://ezinearticles.com/?Working-in-Dubai&id=62631
Russia has a flat tax of 15% (quite a bit lower than my screw you in the arse 30% tax.) and their coffers actually increased because of this.
Ted Kennedy? His idea of compromising was for you to surrender all your ideas and agree with him.
Bush tried to reach out to Kennedy by letting him write the education bill and what did Bush get for it? A nice dagger in back in a time of war.
So much to respond to and and so little time...
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Sep 25 2009 14:28:43 |
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BluehairOMO
Bark like a dog for me
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 14:49:09
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Yay, discussion instead of dueling links. :)
Congrats HB. You aren't gaining in-laws, you're losing a tax deduction. :) Best wishes for the happy couple.
I want to be up front that I agree that the Government is not good at doing things in a timely or efficient manner. I am upset about the deficit. I have expressed in no uncertain terms to my representative that the troops in Afghanistan need support or to be pulled the hell out.
On the topic of Government running anything... I don't see any other takers. I don't like it. I tell people in office I don't like it. That does not change the objective conditions. The economic meltdown in the days after letting Lieghman fail was a time when a hard call needed to be made. Let it all fall down, or do something even if it may be wrong? It's done and there is no undoing it. Would I like to squeeze every last frickin' dollar out of those politicians' asses? Yep. No one can ever truly know what woulda coulda shoulda happened, but I believe it would have been bad in a way no living American can fathom if not for the actions of the Government. Way too many loopholes, and not enough thought went into the TARP, but remember who we are talking about here... politicians. Not exactly the sharpest tacks in the drawer. The objective condition remains that the bottom has been reached and the next year or so will see at least some growth. NOT in jobs. We're screwed there for a while. I will still take that over even the possibility of a full blown worldwide depression any day.
The Dems will lay down and roll over on financial reform. They won't be able to help themselves. They want the bucks the bankers will donate if they do roll over. They will need that cash once that all becomes apparant to the voting public. Opening for the Republicans if they play it right, but they will have to screw the money men to do it. Don't look for that brave action to happen. It would be too smart and take a much too long a view for people that cannot think beyond the next election cycle.
The Government controlled stocks that I have heard of in the news lately are the bank stocks that the Goverment is selling for a profit. Not running the companies, not guiding the companies... hell they almost screwed the companies by trying to sell it in large blocks, thereby driving down the price(reason to NOT let gov't run things). So with a little real-world financial guidance, the public will make an even larger profit from these sales to offset the true losses of the toxic assets the morons in D.C. bought. I call that one 6 to 5 and pick 'em on whether it will be a smallish loss or a large loss over the lifetime of the purchases. The Government will sell these assets off as soon as possible to make up some(tiny bit) of the deficit. Most likely each sale will be spaced out to give maximum PR milage around the time of Government reports on the economy and deficit.
As far as the car companies and the claim that the Government is 'running' them through regulation and milage standards... if that is true, then GOOD as far as that goes. Oil is not forever. 100 years of oil is not forever. It could take our dumb asses that long to get our acts together on electrical generation. We need it for plastics a lot more than we need it to run our SUVs. If they have to make smaller cars for smaller profits, too bad. I want my great grandchildren to be able to live in a modern world. Capitalism is not anarchy. That is the whole role of a democratic government in a capitalist society. To put the brakes on unsustainable growth and the natural tendency of people to want more. We get more but not all at once or in a rush. That is one of the real reasons people dislike governemnt because it tells us what we cannot do when we really want to do something.
Lies lies lies. Both sides love that word. Of COURSE they are lying.
A. They are politicians.
B. Their mouths are moving.
C. Sound is coming out.
I never said the President wasn't misleading people. I said I supported what I take to be his true ideals for America and Americans. Not Pelosi's or the democratic party's ideals. I have a few conservative things I would add into his reptoire to make him more favorable to me, but you plays the hand you're dealt. He is suffering from the same thing I feared would happen to John McCain during the election. Captured and steamrollered by others into making bad calls and having to take the heat for them. Bad information and bad advice makes for bad decisions. Add into that the economy and one war winding down and another badly in need of winding up. He is far from perfect. He is who we have for at least 3 more years. If the economy turns around within 2 years and the Republicans do not take sensible advantage of whatever breaks come their way, we get four more years of him. Nervous? I am, but no less or more than if anyone else I could think of was in the White House.
The deficit... A few years of war and an economic meltdown, coupled with ridiculously low taxes.. plus the normal liberal affinity to spend money. Add a dash of Conservative idiocy that turns off voters in droves. Recipe for disaster. I would love it if there were 50 Republicans and 50 Dems in the Senate. But nooooo, we have to be true to our principles and drive away anyone who does not agree one hundred percent with every single facet of our platform. Yelling will not help. A vocal minority is still a minority. I agree that the media leans left. Always has. Vote on election day and take what the majority gives us and work with it until the next election.
Health Care.. again ...no other takers. It's broken. America spends more and gets less than any other nation for health care. I could care less what the label is. as long as it works at least a little better than what we have. It most likely won't, but again ... nooo, we can't regulate the free market insurance industry. That would be commie-like. So instead of taking measured, small steps toward getting the private sector under a little control over time, we get this mess. I would much rather have the private sector run the industries they have chosen to be in. But once an industry reaches a certain level of importance to the nation and society, they either have to check their greed at the door, or get Big Brother watching. The free market is not a suicide pact for everyone that does not believe in the 'get as much as quick as you can' way of business.
I get you HB, and all others who hate the way things are going. PROPOSE SOLUTIONS. Think, look, get a positive and clear message out. Shouting You Lie is not going to cut it around election time, and I am scared of what will happen if we get 7 years of this.
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Lord, help me to be the person my psychiatrist medicates me to be. |
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BluehairOMO
Bark like a dog for me
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 15:14:35
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Fossil, didn't see ya there.
Dubai is a city who calls itself a country. 94% expatriate and personal taxation is outlawed. I just cannot see how that is relevant for a comparison bro.
I was not aware of the Russian info but I find it hard to fathom that a majority of Russians even pay their taxes after so long under soviet rule. They are most likely making a good return on corporate taxes and oil revenues, but again, what kind of standard of living are they getting compared to America?
Is that 30% personal taxes or are you a business owner? How much does that number come down after deductions and tax lawyers examine it? I agree that is harsh, and I have ideas in the area, but I have to spend some time with my daughter. I would think that no one that makes under 1 mil a year should pay anything approaching that as a flat rate, but if you add in deductions and shelters.. then it gets murky.
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Lord, help me to be the person my psychiatrist medicates me to be. |
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 17:41:46
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I was commenting on your statement
"Americans pay the absolute lowest taxes of any industrialised nation"
That's how it was relevant, I did just a smidge of research and if you can believe wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
You'll see that your statement is far from accurate. I realize you were probably speaking off the cuff so no worries I got your point.
I was wrong about Russia, they pay lower than the 15% I mentioned, it's 13%.
it's roughly 30% if you include state FICA medicare along with the Fed. I still pay property taxes, sales tax and the tax they lump in with gas. When you talk taxes you have to include everything not just income. My only deductions are my kids and my mortgage.
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Sep 25 2009 17:45:06 |
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BluehairOMO
Bark like a dog for me
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Posted - Sep 26 2009 : 03:02:10
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Oh, I see your point Fossil. I was speaking of income taxes by themselves. I will have to look into it more because I fall into the trap we all do from time to time, and believe what I hear if I hear it repeated often enough. Thanks for the reality check bro.
The main purpose of this thread from my point of view is to highlight the death of civility and compromise accross the board, rather than to focus on any one issue in detail. I did use examples to show how they affect my views, but for me it is not so much the issues themselves(as important as they are) so much as the way we all approach addressing them. Then I allowed myself to wander off even further. :) I am going to re-double my efforts to keep this particular discussion focused on HOW we go about resolving our differences rather than the differences themselves.
It seems that the issues themselves have become so divisive, that maybe we should all take a step back and go take a refresher course in logic, compromise and good manners.
I am quite aware that the poor behavior I have been posting about is not the sole perview of the Conservatives. Liberals rant when they are not in power, and I bitch about that too, but I wasn't posting in these type of forums then. :) I do promise that I rail against anyone regardless of politcal stripe if they cannot learn to compromise and deal with the world as it is, while still trying to effect change to something they can support more readily.
My version of a decent government policy is one that does the most good for the most people while at the same time doing the least harm to the lowest number of people. Although some politicians believe they can snap their fingers and print more money, it just doesn't work that way. To give someone something, you have to take that something away from someone else. The ones that get taken away from may not like this, even if they agree in principle that helping those less fortunate is a good thing to do.
I am reminded of the parable of Jimmy Carter. He was the last President who was brave enough to baldly state that Americans would have to make sacrifices... so we sacrificed him. :)
Now when I use Democratic examples such as Kennedy and Carter and Clinton, do not think they are my "heroes" or that I even think they were particularly effective leaders in every respect. They are just the ones that come to mind as I write. Read nothing more into it. I am an Independent American. Each President gets the blame for what goes bad and the credit for what goes well on his watch... that is the pact I have made with them. The buck stops there so the credit does too. I will start a Presidential thread soon I swear. :) Each one has good and bad points and I would love to build the perfect President from the traits of past ones.
Now I am not advocating that we require Congress to sit around a campfire and sing Koombaya(although it would be a good test to see how many congresscritters would do it just to get on CSPAN), but bit less obstructionism and a bit more working towards reasonable policy would be nice. I blame Pelosi & Co. for stomping roughshod over any attempt at reasonable compromise as much as I blame birthers and fear mongers for muddying the waters even further. They won on 'change' and went right back to business as usual. At every turn, I see how term limits would help eliminate a lot of the crap we all have to deal with from our elected officials.
That being stated, the world still bites us on the butt in the light of day. This is the way it is. They are in power. Work with them if we can, and if we choose to work against them, do it in a logical and reasonable manner. Just because mud slinging is how it has always been done doesn't mean we have to keep putting up with it. The Dems won the elections and we have to put up with that because the Constitution tells us so. I hope I have made it clear that I would rather support a more conservative view, but will not as long as the attitudes I see are in force. I do not support the Democratic party or the more liberal policies they espouse. BUT, for the moment, that is who I have to deal with so I make the best of it.
Here is a fictional example... A Conservative calls his Democratic left leaning Representative to speak about issues that concern him. He can either start railing and calling his rep a liar and a thief, or he can present his views in a manner that may actually get at least some attention. You can flip that around if you so desire. A Liberal calls a Republican Rep. and can either tell him to get in line or he can state his views in a calm reasonable manner.
Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell, and make him think he will enjoy the trip.
Which one of these statements would make you more open to someone else's view?
A. "You are a liar and a thief and I despise everything you stand for and all the people who agree with you."
B. "I strongly disagree with your position, and feel that I must in all good conscience counter your position with my own."
Conservatives are gaining a few but losing out on many more by taking Plan A.
Being for something is much more difficult than being against something. It is a lot easier to say "I don't like that" than it is to say "Here is a plan on how I would change that".
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Lord, help me to be the person my psychiatrist medicates me to be. |
Edited by - BluehairOMO on Sep 26 2009 03:54:43 |
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Sep 26 2009 : 06:15:59
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BH, That was a very good post as usual. I also do not have the time to respond at present as i will be going to my doctor (MY DOCTOR) not the VA. I go to this doctor for things not related to my Vietnam problems, and if those are serious, I will go to my and I say again MY DOCTOR.
You made some good points and some I can't go with, I will be back to give my opinion soon. I will say now that I do like the time of service for elected persons. It should no more than 2 times IMHO.
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Sep 26 2009 : 08:41:58
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I wish it were as simple as asking politely for the bully who is punching you in face to please stop.
Conservatives are finally tired of being the left's punching bag and are standing up for themselves and since it's out of the norm it's news. With the exception of a few, our leaders in congress aren't getting the message across so we have to get their attention and show them that we mean business. We won't let this country go down the path of socialism with out a fight.
The left are pros at organizing, demonstrating, marching (mostly because they are unemployed and have time to do so) more so than those of us who cant take time to attend rally's. But when something as important as taking our freedoms away then Hell yah I'll go to town meeting or take time off to go to tea party.
Bush tired to be civil to his predecessors during his term and you never heard him say anything bad about Clinton or any member of Congress. He never blamed his present problems on the previous administration like the present one does. Clinton and Gore both criticize bush while he was in office and Obama blames him for all of his problems still. The conservative's problems is, they don't play the same game the left does and they get pummeled for it. So now when they find a little back bone aka Joe Wilson "You lie" guy, they don't like it.
So as far as I'm concerned they can throw civility out the window and take the gloves off, I'm tired of wimpy leaders with no backbone (where is Zell miller ((democrat)) when you need him), we've tried the civility route and it doesn't work against democrats, we've got too much to lose to play nice guy because you know how nice guy's finish, right?
Best line describing democrats by Bob Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkmS6JrWSPU&feature=related
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Sep 26 2009 15:45:24 |
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Petrified-OMO
Taxing Patience
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Posted - Sep 26 2009 : 12:46:54
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Good to hear your thoughts Blue.
I debate myself regarding term limits now and again. The real problem with not having term limits is that we get to plainly see other parts of the country think. Obviously enough people liked, didn't care, or were not enthused with the opposition to repeat vote the same guy back into office. However, it is something wonderful to see politicians squirm when their voters threaten to not vote them back into office if they go a certain way. Term limits will negate this aspect which is critical at times like now. Leverage is a good thing.
Yes, there are certainly plenty of people who love earmarks, whether they vote Republican or Democrat. But you miss something critical when you equate Socialism with looking out for your neighbor. The Bible's point in numerous locations (Proverbs 19:17 and Corinthians 9:6 included) is one of personal responsibility. I fully agree that if we see someone in need, we help them. However, the ultimate question of meeting someones needs should not be in the hands of a rule or bureaucrat, it should be in the hands of those who can meet it best: the individual.
The State cannot, nor should anyone expect it to meet anyone's needs, wants, or desires. It is one thing to say: give to the needy and quite another to say: you must give to the needy. Likewise it is one thing to say: I will help you from my own pocket and another to say: I will help you from someone elses pocket. The difference between Government sponsored Socialism and Personal Socialism (which I believe in) is that the government takes and determines with your money how it will help people. I would much rather determine how to help people with my own money in my own way than rely on Government to do it. Once government is involved in the process, the whole entirety becomes political.
Take Obama. He has family in Africa. Has he sent a dime to help them out? Or does he propose that the government send your dime to help them out? It is easy to let government take care of things, it eliminates personal responsibility in the decision process.
So yeah, I call it Socialism and I say it unabashedly. Anytime you rely on government to do what you are personally responsible for is allowing Socialism to creep into your life. I am personally responsible for seeing to my medical needs. I am personally responsible for preparing my retirement. I am not personally responsible for protecting your Rights; that is what government can do and why we have a Military.
Conservatives at fault? Yes, we are. We are at fault for this reason however: we compromised our principals by voting for Moderates, RINOs, and the anyone labeled "Republican". We did not hold their feet to the fire. So yes, Obama won because for 20 years we compromised and kept returning or putting into office people who were not sincere to the principals of the Republican Party or the Constitution of the United States. Obama won because McCain was his competition. Conservatives need to take back the Republican Party because we have not had a Conservative in the White House since Reagan. The only reason why Obama did not win with a landslide is because of Palin.
The best Health care reform would be smart deregulation and capping litigation costs and payouts. Health care in Texas has seen a serious improvement since they enacted some very smart reforms which capped pay outs which in turn resulted in lower health care costs.
Another reason for our high health care costs revolves around medicine. A large part of the cost of any medication is the Research and Development required to come up with something new and improved. That is not free. Of the Industrialized Nations, we have the most productive pharmaceutical companies. Yes how can this be if we are somehow 'behind' the rest of the governments who use socialized health care? We pay the most in medicine because we subsidize that same medication for the rest of the world. Sure, you can by top medications cheaper in Canada, but that is due to laws capping the price. Some of those laws are "or else" laws saying you sell it here or we come up with a knock off.
Can things be improved? Always. But improving should not be left in the hands of the Government. We already know, and you admit it, that it is corrupt and inept. So why trust them with more?
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Signatures?! We don't need no stinking signatures! |
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Come and Get Me
