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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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 Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 10:42:52
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Fossel wrote: quote:
President Bush like him or hate has kept the country safe from another attack.
Did he do it all by himself are perhaps had a little assistance.......ROFL
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Always take your Med's
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Country: USA
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 16:20:28
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You would certainly think that he invaded Iraq all by himself using your logic.
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Country: USA
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Specimen-OMO
OMO stalker
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 18:55:30
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Someone has gotta pay for that war. It ain't going to be Haliburton or the Oil companies or George Bush. Guess who?
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Edited by - Specimen-OMO on Jul 26 2008 18:55:56 |
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Country: Canada
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 19:28:26
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We will pay for it. But not as much as if obama gets in. We will pay our the arse and nose for everything with him.
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Country: USA
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 20:00:57
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Preventive maintenance is always cheaper than fixing a problem once it's broke. I'd much rather have my tax money go toward fighting terrorist and over throwing unstable dictators than watching my tax money wasted on combating so called man made global warming. Defense of our nation is the Govt TOP priority and everything else is secondary.
How much money have we wasted by having troops in Korea all these years? If we'd taking care of business instead of signing a treaty, North Korea wouldn't be a nuclear threat, now we have to deal with them on different terms now.
Same as if Sadam had been allowed to develop nuclear weapons, Sadam broke the United Nations HB resolutions enacted after the first gulf war one after the other and according to those resolutions we could continue military action against him if he broke them. Everyone seems to have forgotten the first gulf war and the terms for cease fire.
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Jul 26 2008 20:02:07 |
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HEARTBURN-OMO
Spammer wannabe
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 20:24:09
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If it's against the law to have Playboys and I have 1000 of them and you tell me you're going to raid my home, but I keep putting you off and putting you off, by the time I let you in or you bang the door down, I can have it all flushed. Most of the stuff in Iraq went to Iraan and Libya. Anyone thinks there were no weapons, is truly living in a dream world. AND, that's what's scarey...
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http://www.entertonement.com/clips/sgxwpvxvjk--I-wipe-my-own-ass |
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 20:50:10
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You can talk till you are blue in the face and the Liberals will not be able to see that it is better to get them over there than wait for another hit here. Remember, alot of the liberals think that bush did the 911 anyway. They get their information from Rosie and those idiots.
Open your eyes and remove the scales that keep you from seeing that they want us dead no matter what you do to try to make them like us. They want to walk on our graves if they even bury us. They will tear this country apart and most will just sit and say, but we can get along, they only want a little space and to exercise their freedoms. Meanwhile your family will be loseing theirs.
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Specimen-OMO
OMO stalker
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 06:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Bifocal-OMO
We will pay for it. But not as much as if obama gets in. We will pay our the arse and nose for everything with him.
I'm just saying whoever is the president, be it Republican or Democrat, starts off with a with a massive defecit.
Attack them before they hit us, what are you going to do about Iran? Start there too? How about Saudi Arabia? Alot of the terrorists came from there. How about Pakistan? Osoma Bin Laden (remember him?) has been skipping accross the border for years.
What about collateral damage? Approx. 90000 Iraqi civilians killed, not terrorists, civilians. And millions more injured or homeless. With those numbers, you are not killing them off, you are breeding hatred. 90000 civilian casulties on a war based on misinformation and stretching of the truth. That's a bigger hole.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org
I don't have Liberal or Republican blinders on, I do see there's a threat from across the world, and I do see that the Iraq War was based on misinformation and a stretching of truth. The joint Dem/Rep 911 commission has determined that. As for pulling out, I agree, it can't be done yet. Iraq is not stable enough. It's a mess that has been created and it needs to be cleaned up.
Terrorists and extremists are everywhere. How do you deal with that? I'm not saying walk away and hope for the best. I think there's got to be a better way than all out war. It should only be a last resort.
This is a good start.
http://www.usip.org/index.html
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Country: Canada
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 10:20:55
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I have never heard of the IBC and would like to check further to see who funds it and who sponsers it I guess I would say. The figures that are presented may be actual and may not be. No way to tell for sure. The USIP which is sponsered by congress I would think should be a good thing but it is by congress and they have done nothing to promote anything of value.
I will have to read more to be able to speak on both of these and I will read. It would be good to think that congress is implementing something for peace if it is a good thing but they should be more about the illegal immigrants. Crime across the nation from alot of the gangs from south america are takeing the lives of Natural Born americans. The nancy idiot wants to leagelize them and put them out on the streets. We have more each month killed in our country than in Iraq but we do nothing except try to take the guns away from law abideing Americans.
We still need to take the fight to them and keep them away from our soil, if they are not on it now, and go after them here also with all we can.
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 13:17:36
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Let me get this right, you think that US military is directly responsible for 90,000 Iraqi civilian deaths? That so much rubbish I don't know where to start.
First of all the US Military takes extreme actions to avoid civilian casualties, there is an ROE ( rules of engagement ) that is so adhered to that it actually jeopardizes our troops safety. Have there been some accidents? you bet people not stopping at check points and friendly fire from an AC 130 come to mind. You have to keep in mind also that the terrorist will use women and children as cover while shooting at our troops, so yeah there will be some but not 90,000.
Islamic extremist from mostly foreign countries are the ones setting off car bombs and killing Iraqis by the hundreds NOT the US Military. If they weren't doing it there they'd be doing it somewhere else, like over here.
Sadam was responsible for carnage on a large scale before we even got there, the chemical gas attack on the Kurds and the slaying of hundreds of thousands before we showed up on the scene.
Was Iraq a better place before we got there? Hell no.
The main problem was we didn't have enough troops to begin with, Ole Rummy wanted as small as a footprint as possible and that proved to be disastrous, things have gotten a whole lot better since the surge of 20k troops and one the Iraq can prove that they can handle the security over there we'll leave.
War is expensive but so is a lot of crap the Govt waste money on but National defense is one of the few things Govt is responsible for according to our constitution and not all the other nonsense BS.
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Jul 27 2008 13:21:05 |
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 13:34:12
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That was speci not me. I agree with you Fossil. The road bombs and the terrorist have done the damage to the civilians Not the troops. Some would like you to think that it was the troops but it isn't.
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Specimen-OMO
OMO stalker
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 18:17:15
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Fossil, I never said U.S. troops are responsible for all the deaths. I really don't believe there were any intentional killings of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops, and if, if there were, those responsible would have been punished in a military court. Hell, they are investigating a soldier's actions of picking up a small puppy and throwing it into a ravine while on duty and being videotaped. (which is another topic but I digress)
It's a record, a statisitc, a count of civilian deaths directly related to the invasion and occupation of Iraq. 90000 civilian deaths. Yes alot/most of that is attributed to terrorst backlash. But, throw a rock into a hornet's nest and claim innocence because you didn't sting anybody doesn't sit well with me. And it really doesn't matter what I think, but who do you think they will blame? This war is breeding terrorists and extremists no matter how well the soldiers follow ROE.
As for saving the Iraqi's from the oppressing regime Sadam Hussein, what was the mission initially? The justification for the war has been bent and twisted to meet the current objections. Not much "staying the course" there, unless we (the general public) didn't know what the objective was in the first place.
First it was Al-queda - (uh oh no links to Al-queda), then it was WMD - (well he must have buried them in the sand and shredded every single document in the country regarding them), now it is liberating a country from a brutal regime. Iraq may not have been a better place before, but it wasn't your job to fix it.
Oh for the record, I'm NOT Anti-American or supporting terrorists. It just a different view from here, my view, not my nations', kinda like asking for your buddies's keys if you thought he was going to drive home drunk.
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 18:38:40
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More than 90,000 died under Sadam Husseins rule. The people, now, are trying to keep control of their country. If we pull out we are invieting Iraq to fall again. Iran, is another probelm that was mentioned and what to do. If they keep bothering Isreal they will lose more than their missiles. Isreal will take the apart, and yes, we might be there helping them.
I have never been viewed as a dove. My position is that of a Hawk, strike and strike hard. That is what I was taught and I believe in it. Do nothing and be bullied and eventually ruled by those that bully.
I hate war but it is something that will not go away. You either go to it on their ground or get ready here on our ground. One or the other. There is no place between. You can not talk to them and get them to listen. THEY HATE US AND WANT US DEAD. If you feel better fighting on our ground and takeing a chance of watching your family and kids be killed here, then that is up to you and you have the freedom to make that choice. I won't stand and watch that.
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Specimen-OMO
OMO stalker
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 19:10:08
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I agree that pulling out now would be worse. Iraq is weak now and it has enemies at the borders waitng for an opportunity to strike. But the fact remains, there is/was no clear cut evidence that Al-queda was there. And pouring so much dollars/troops/effort has diluted your resources to fight terrorism across the globe. That was the mission wasn't it?
I do agree with/support the war in Afganistan, it was very clear that the Taliban were supporting Al-Queda and harboring Osama.
And who are THEY THAT WANT US DEAD? Who are they? The whole country of Iraq? I hope not 'cause it wasn't like that before.
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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 19:53:16
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I was going to keep out of this after the last fiasco, however:
First we were going after the 9/10 terrorist and Osama, but instead wound up attacking Iraq which was the first time this Country attacked another Country first. The reason for the attack was WMD which were not found, so then it was switched to fighting Terrorist that were not there before we got there. Now we have to stay there to keep the terrorist out.
Damm when will people realize that the terrorist are there because we are there. I fully agree with fighting terrorist that are attacking us. Almost all of the 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia but what was done about that. I keep hearing that the reason we have to stay in Iraq is to keep it from becomming a Terrorist State. Does anyone with a shread of common sense think that the Terrorist really need Iraq and that if we control Iraq they will just disappear.......give me a break. Where do you think all the Terrorist were at before Iraq.
What is the solution..............I don't have a clue. I just know that as things stand now it's a real mess and what we are doing in Iraq has almost nothing to do with National Security.
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Always take your Med's
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Country: USA
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burniste
frequent visitor
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 20:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Expired-OMO
what we are doing in Iraq has almost nothing to do with National Security.
sure it does:
oil.
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Bifocal-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 20:40:30
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Well, if we pull out of Iraq, it will give them the fuel to get rolling hard again as they will feel that they made us leave. Our defeat is their fuel to continue. Any country that is about to go under is a country we need to help defend.
I know, I know, We should stay here and defend just here. When the rest of the world is taken we will be at their mercy. To say that it has nothing to do with our security to me holds no water. It is where we must win in order to show we will do what is necessary to win. They are crying for europe to go down now we will be next.
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SkidiMark-OMO
OMO groupie
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 21:23:42
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I agree whole heartedly Fossil, Clinton should have let the guys finish the job during desert shield. I have heard that from every military who I have met that was there...
he had over 19 months to move and get rid of the crap. Also when my buddy was over there he took a picture of a 3 yard dump truck loaded with rockets, RPG's and guns, nades, and who knows what else. He said that was found in a bunker dug into the desert just outside Baghdad, it was one of three loads taken from the ammo dump. He said they found four others two that were larger.
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"If you can't stand behind our TROOPS. Please feel free to stand in front of them."
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Fossil-OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 23:04:24
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Bush 1 was president during Desert shield fyi.
If Sadam had launched a nuclear weapon and destroyed half of Israel people would have blamed bush for not agreeing with the faulty intell. Damned if you do damned if don't. Id rather error on the side of caution than be slapped with another 9/11 (not nine 9/10 expired)
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Edited by - Fossil-OMO on Jul 28 2008 17:52:41 |
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Cadaver-OMO
Dead Man Flying
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Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 09:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by burniste
quote:
Originally posted by Expired-OMO
what we are doing in Iraq has almost nothing to do with National Security.
sure it does:
oil.
word
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