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Petrified-OMO
Taxing Patience
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Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 12:29:37
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Wait, so they will be using P2P hosting?
Ah... ok, they are doing what Relic does with Company of Heroes and Dawn of War 2. While this works ok with the RTS games, I don't see how this helps FPS. What is managing the game? NM... posting at the BCO forum.
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TLBFestus
Is it safe?
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Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 17:26:25
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Yeah this announcement pretty much killed my interest in the game.
What Petri said.
Unfortunately, we are fighting a losing battle with the console crowd. While I don't think that they will quit providing PC versions of games, I think it just makes economic sense for these companys to cater to the largest market share, which will enevtably be the console market.
Kids, defined by myself as 14-26 for the most part cannot afford a truly good computer, but can afford a console like Xbox 360, PS3, etc for strictly gaming and they will drive the market.
Our only saving grace is direct marketing platforms like STEAM and IMPULSE, but many of the games in the future will be geared toward the dumbed down, console gamer.
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Edited by - TLBFestus on Oct 18 2009 17:31:04 |
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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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 Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 18:22:24
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Now it seems the game will be released on time.........however I'm willing to bet it will be a direct port from console with very little change.
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Always take your Med's
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Geezer_OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 23:00:08
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No offense to anyone but everyone seems to be having a knee jerk reaction to this news. Not allowing server hosting is not that big of a deal. This sounds like a move toward a similar system found in RTS games. It may be better than you think. These types of systems allow for some cool features such as skill based ranking rather than just exp point ranking. In RTS games if you enter a ranked match, your rank can raise or LOWER! This type of system raises the level of risk and excitement. Not saying that COD6 has a system in place to do this but it would be a hoot. None of this is possible if server hosting is allowed as the game types would not be unified. In RTS games you have a choice, play ranked games against players with similar skills with specific parameters, or play custom games for fun in any configuration. In custom games you link with friends, set up the match style and you are joined by people looking for games to join. This isn't much different than hosting your own server. Personally I think the RTS model for ranking would be nice for a FPS. I also like the idea of reducing hacks and all the punk buster stupidity. I would love to see future windows live titles allow PC players a chance to play against consoles. If this could ever happen it would keep PC gaming alive for sure. Hence, maybe this will lead to positive things.
It seems to me silly that so many are upset to the point where they are not going to purchase COD6. Personally, I enjoy playing with friends more than getting so hung up by little game flaws. $60 games are cheap entertainment. We are willing to pay $10 for a movie ticket for 2 hours of entertainment. Most of the time we pay far more with food and there is a huge risk we won't even enjoy the movie. Hence, why are so many so reluctant to buy a $60 game and give it a shot? Seems like a double standard if you ask me. Most of the time even fair to average game titles allow you to get a return on your entertainment dollars. I can't think of a game where the single player wasn't worth at least the 60 bucks. Even if I play a game for a few weeks I easily get my money out of it compared to other entertainment options. Just thoughts..............
PC gamers not buying PC games only hurts PC gaming. Enjoy your console......
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Edited by - Geezer_OMO on Oct 18 2009 23:18:18 |
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Bloody
OMO groupie
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 06:57:53
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This isn't about a RTS or RPG, etc. It's a whole different ball game and if you don't know why we are PC gamers are upset about this, your probably not playing FPS games much. ;) It is a big deal and on one of the largest success games on PC too.
And PC gamers not buying is making a statement. And it really doesn't matter at this point how many PC games are sold, truth is they are almost all console ports now anyway. PC gamers mean nothing to game makers now.
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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 08:54:50
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Just checked the Petition sign up!!!!
63691
WOW
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Always take your Med's
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Stingray
frequent visitor
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 11:57:47
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Sorry, this is not a little game flaw, this is a huge step backwards. If anything consoles should be moving towards DS instead of the lobbies or whatever they have now. How could you argue against having total freedom on the ability to run your server. No reason they can't make server files that would allow Consoles and PC games to play nice on DS.
I like certain aspects of Project Torque and Combat Arms where you can tweak server settings on the fly. But this should be for server admins only via Rcon. Not controlled by some IW geek.
The fact they waited so long to announce this is not a good sign. They've done zero to appease PC gamers or release any info about IW.net since the announcement. Game lunches in less than a month, I'm sure they have the details sorted out by now.
OFP2 released almost no MP data until lunch. The MP aspect of that game has been a disaster.
IW feels they need to consolize the PC version of this game to make it easier for the noobs.
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Geezer_OMO
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:10:56
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I have no problem petitioning for positive change. However, it seems that both BCO and OMO are being very picky about the titles to purchase and play. A clan/club is just as much social, gaming with friends, as it is about the actual game being played. If active membership is in anyway a function of the number of people playing together on Vent, then BCO and OMO have less then 10 members each. Hence, maybe before passing on yet another title, everyone should consider the drop of active members in BCO and OMO. The perfect game doesn’t exist. Trying to petition for positive change is fine but it is sounding like a lot of people are now refusing to purchase COD6. Take a stand if you want but before long there may not be anyone around to notice.
Having spent a lot of time playing CoD4 and CoD5, not matter what happens with regards to server hosting, this game will still be enjoyable. The previews clearly state/show this. IW has reasons for their decision. Yes, it is late in the development so my guess is the server situation will not change no matter how many petitions there are. My guess is too much money has been spent in development thus far so changing to a DS system will not be cost effective. I am going to buy the game and give it a shot. I will get my $60 out of it either way.
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TLBFestus
Is it safe?
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Geezer_OMO
No offense to anyone but everyone seems to be having a knee jerk reaction to this news. Not allowing server hosting is not that big of a deal. This sounds like a move toward a similar system found in RTS games. It may be better than you think. These types of systems allow for some cool features such as skill based ranking rather than just exp point ranking. In RTS games if you enter a ranked match, your rank can raise or LOWER! This type of system raises the level of risk and excitement. Not saying that COD6 has a system in place to do this but it would be a hoot. None of this is possible if server hosting is allowed as the game types would not be unified. In RTS games you have a choice, play ranked games against players with similar skills with specific parameters, or play custom games for fun in any configuration. In custom games you link with friends, set up the match style and you are joined by people looking for games to join. This isn't much different than hosting your own server. Personally I think the RTS model for ranking would be nice for a FPS. I also like the idea of reducing hacks and all the punk buster stupidity. I would love to see future windows live titles allow PC players a chance to play against consoles. If this could ever happen it would keep PC gaming alive for sure. Hence, maybe this will lead to positive things.
It seems to me silly that so many are upset to the point where they are not going to purchase COD6. Personally, I enjoy playing with friends more than getting so hung up by little game flaws. $60 games are cheap entertainment. We are willing to pay $10 for a movie ticket for 2 hours of entertainment. Most of the time we pay far more with food and there is a huge risk we won't even enjoy the movie. Hence, why are so many so reluctant to buy a $60 game and give it a shot? Seems like a double standard if you ask me. Most of the time even fair to average game titles allow you to get a return on your entertainment dollars. I can't think of a game where the single player wasn't worth at least the 60 bucks. Even if I play a game for a few weeks I easily get my money out of it compared to other entertainment options. Just thoughts..............
PC gamers not buying PC games only hurts PC gaming. Enjoy your console......
The problem with this is most RTS games involve no more than 8 players. Games like this routinely involve 24-64 players, and having local hosting is going to be very difficult.
At least thats how I see it.
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Stingray
frequent visitor
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 13:24:30
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I'm opposite from you Geezer. I buy a game for MP not SP. SP is a bonus at best. Usually complete SP in a day or two.
Also, if I can't enjoy the amount of freedom I enjoy now playing on well admin'd clan servers, I'll pass on the game in a heartbeat.
Problem is, a lot of console players have been raised on nothing but consoles, they really don't understand what they are missing having DS.
Not to mention what this does to the competitive gaming community. IW's response to them has been pathetic.
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Geezer_OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 14:36:17
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I am like you Stingray. I buy games almost exclusively for MP not SP. Anyone who plays games with me knows this. I buy a game load it and start playing people. Most of the time I don't even play the tutorials or read the manuals. I believe in trial by fire. I think CoD6 MP will be fine. The single player is only a insurance policy for entertainment dollar return.
Festus,
It is true that RTS game only have a max of 8 players in a game at one time however it really has more to do with the number of total players playing everywhere at one time that we should look at and also the data transfer. A big RTS title will have thousands of players playing at one time without having a DS. I still think it is all going to work out. Maybe it is my RTS experience that gives me this confidence. If IW did their homework, then this could be nothing more than a reaction to change rather than much being different. If a monster title like Starcraft 2 can use a no DS system then a much smaller world wide PC title like CoD6 can function fine. I guess I am just being optimistic.
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Edited by - Geezer_OMO on Oct 19 2009 14:45:42 |
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Petrified-OMO
Taxing Patience
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Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 20:48:03
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Probably why I am an MMORPG sucker: I like stories and as such appreciate a game with a good SP experience as well as MP. For me SP is as important as MP.
As for the move towards server-less environments: as I stated earlier, this was similar to RTS. As was mentioned by Festus, the FPS environment with 12-60 players is vastly different from a RTS environment with 6-10 players. RTS has limitations based on units. When a player can field 20-100 units in a highly detailed environment such as DoW2 meaning up to 600 units in the game, your overhead is much higher requiring fewer players making private servers overkill to host so few players. When you have 12-60 players in MP you only have 1 unit per player, having a private server makes a lot more sense since you can collect more of your friends and enemies in one location.
A private server makes sense with a multitude of players and, more importantly: it contributes far more to a community and community building than the serverless environment. While I enjoy playing DoW2 with Geezer, Kinketsu, Fossil, and Bypass, it has not built much of a community - not that CoD4 and 5 did as well - perhaps the lack of ingame chat areas that HomeWorld, MW4, and earlier games where many OMO arrived at the doorstep from had.
Starcraft 1 never had a DS. 
That is more the legacy and curse of console gaming: destruction of community building features.
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Bloody
OMO groupie
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Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 06:45:35
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I started to worry about COD6 back when they said "no demo/beta". Almost 99% of the time when a PC game has no demo or beta it usually points to two issues. First, the game sucks and they don't want the word out before they get the opening week sales. Second, the hype is so large that they would not really see a benefit from it. When they said no demo I figured it must be cause of the second reason, as IW was trusted and had always given us good games. Buzzzzzz.
NFS Shift is the only game I have seen in the last couple years that had no demo/beta but actually turned out very well. All the rest with no demo/beta before release have all been stinkers.
As for SP vs MP, I see SP as a bonus for most games, not the main reason to play. This of course depends on the game and genre, but for the most part MP is the sole reason to play. Thank goodness OP:DR has an epic SP (too short, but good user made missions at least), as that game really was going to be something special for MP, but they went the way of non dedicated servers for it too and it's just painful to play on line. I don't think COD6 will be worth even $30 for SP, as the other CODs have had just OK single player.
The other thought I have had on this move is that these companies may also be building towards pay to play systems like you see in MMOs. You first take servers away from the competition (game server providers) and then you start charging a monthly fee for playing on a server. They pushed up the price of the game to $60 this time, and then next game they will say you get a "free" month of play time with the purchase of the game. And unless they come up with some uber cool leveling systems, economy, etc. that would make people want to pay to play, I think it will just lead to no one wanted to play the game on PC.
It has to be about money, cause no other reason would make since.
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Expired-OMO
OMO groupie
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Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 08:22:09
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Bloody Quote: "It has to be about money, cause no other reason would make since."
Well after all the bottom line for any company isis "All about the money"
Going to a monthly fee would be a killer for me as I just don't care for that.
Oh by the way Bloody, there is a DEMO for Need For Speed Shift and it's pretty sweet and runs glass smooth. However about 20% of the people are having real bug issues with it. I was going to buy it but after reading about the problems on their forum I decided to wait and see if they patch the problems.
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Always take your Med's
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Country: USA
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Petrified-OMO
Taxing Patience
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Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 15:00:31
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Well, considering the whole point to a corp is two fold: revenue generation and legal protection, of course it is all about the money! It has to by nature. Which is neither good nor bad.
Hmmm... World of Duty. Imagine the gring in that game.
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Bloody
OMO groupie
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Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 06:56:47
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I should have said it's all about greed, not just money. It's one thing for a company to make a profit, etc, but to make a move like this looks to me as massive greed.
My company is not the model of "best run business in the world", but at least we don't go greedy with our customers. We always try to keep the customer happy and coming back, but still try to make the money.
The response yesterday from IW to the whole thing is also just a huge slap in the face. To paraphrase what was said by two IW execs, "PC gamers are a bunch of cheaters, hackers, pirates and general scum". "We want everyone to be playing the console version of the dumb down game and PC users shouldn't get the benefits the PC can offer."
On a positive note, the guys at EA/DICE jumped all over the news of COD MW2s neutering and stated that BF:BC2 will certainly have dedicated server support, mod tools, etc.
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Stingray
frequent visitor
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Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 11:53:42
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This could potentially be "okay" if IW hosted dedicated servers along side their voodoo match making service, however this is not mentioned anywhere. One can only assume at this point MP will be hosted via peer to peer which means your at the mercy of the kid hosting the game from his home computer/internet.
http://www.infinityward.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=128182
I like this analogy,
"geekosphere wrote:Nope sorry. No dice. You dont seem to get it.
WE LIKE THE SERVER BROWSER. Also joining a clan server is like going to your favorite bar, seeing the same people and making friends. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE with matchmaking.
Sorry IW. not buying."
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Edited by - Stingray on Oct 21 2009 11:59:49 |
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Geezer_OMO
Moderator
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Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 12:25:06
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I don't see how finding a game by a friend/contact list would be much different.
IW has stated the following:
You can start a Private Match (which is essentially like running your own private server) where you have complete control over the rules, who can join, boot players you don’t want, and essentially control the entire game or tweak it to your liking. Once the rules are set, you can invite the other team in or just start it up with your clan to practice with the custom rules before the match.
Party System and Friendslist: Modern Warfare 2 on PC also makes it much easier if you want to party up with your friends, or again, with your clan for a match. You can utilize the friendslist to see when your friends are online, and invite them to your Party. A Party allows you to move from game to game as a group. It’s great for clan matches, because you can party of with your clan and move from public game to public game together. Or if you’re doing a scrim, party up and invite the other clan (who is in a party) and they’ll all join at once. Set up a private match together and play. It makes setting up scrims or games with friends easier and hassle free.
This seem fine if you ask me.
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Edited by - Geezer_OMO on Oct 21 2009 12:28:31 |
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Stingray
frequent visitor
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Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 12:41:55
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Geezer, do you understand the whole Dedicated server vs peer to peer thing? Only way we could play as a clan is if one of us hosted the game from our computer.
I'm willing to bet few of us have the network connection to support 16 player host server. I'm guess the person hosting the game would need a 3-5Mb up connection based on others games I've seen that use Peer to Peer.
More than likely, we'll be lucky to get 4-8 of us together online and still experience smooth game play.
We have had over 20 BCO/OMO playing on the BCO/OMO CoD 4/5 server when we hosted a server.
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TLBFestus
Is it safe?
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COD 6
